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johnp23
Machine Builder
Joined: 20 - May - 2005
 United States
Posts: 107
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| Posted: 07 - May - 2010 at 11:20 | IP Logged
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Ok I have a question that is driving me nuts. I built a small log skidder machine with a vertical engine and hydraulic drive, but like an idiot the pump I bought turns CCW and the engine rotates CW. I want to move the pump to the side as use pullys and a belt to spin it.
My two options are to run the belt in a figure 8 pattern to reverse the spin direction of the pump, or mount the pump upside down and run the belt straight. So my question is, can a hydraulic pump be mounted upside down? I have several mounted on their sides, but I don't know if there is any reason why upside down is a problem.
I'm made enough that I already made the mistake of buying the wrong pump, so any input on how I make this work anyway is much appreciated.
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tom
Senior Machine Builder
Joined: 21 - February - 2006
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Home Town, State/Province: kodiak alaska
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| Posted: 07 - May - 2010 at 12:07 | IP Logged
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on a lot of pumps the center section can be turned over to revers the duration look for a half arrow on the body of the pump.
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bobodu
Train Driver
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Home Town, State/Province: Whitley County,In. EIEIO
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| Posted: 07 - May - 2010 at 12:23 | IP Logged
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Pumps don't know up from down.
For future reference,if space is a problem,you can run it from oither end of a jackshaft or even use idler pulleys to make a big loop and run it off the outside of the belt.
Edited by bobodu on 07 - May - 2010 at 12:28
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Cjmac
Machine Builder
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 Canada
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| Posted: 07 - May - 2010 at 17:26 | IP Logged
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What kind of pump is it?
Most pumps (maybe all) have no problems being upside down or sideways. Make sure the pump can stand the side force caused by the belt. Lots of pumps are not meant to be directly belt driven. Also as Tom said, some pumps can be reversed so you could drive it directly.
Chris
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bunkclimber
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Home Town, State/Province: Maryland
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| Posted: 08 - May - 2010 at 08:00 | IP Logged
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sure you can run the pump upside down,makes no difference.Just do take into thought how you're gonna plumb it to the tank,the bigger suction hose doesn't like to be tightly bent.One trick you can do to minimize belt tension is use a serpentine belt,go to a parts yard and get some serp pulleys off a car and then go to the auto parts store and look for a short belt to fit the pulleys,they have more grooves and can transmit the power with less tension on the belt and thus less pressure on the pump bearing.Just a thought for ya
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f350ca
Advanced Machine Builder
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Home Town, State/Province: Calabogie Ontario Canada
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| Posted: 09 - May - 2010 at 11:01 | IP Logged
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Can you direct drive it, or do you need to change the pump speed? If
the motor runs cw and the pump ccw, putting them face to face solves
the problem.
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Mike Van
Senior Machine Builder
Joined: 18 - August - 2006
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Home Town, State/Province: Kent Ct. USA
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| Posted: 09 - May - 2010 at 18:25 | IP Logged
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John, sell the pump & buy the right one. You're adding stuff [belts, pulley's, whatever] that you don't need or want. Belts slip, wear out, etc. You are going to need a twist in yours to get it to change direction. Nothing but headaches. Sell it.
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bobodu
Train Driver
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Home Town, State/Province: Whitley County,In. EIEIO
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| Posted: 10 - May - 2010 at 07:27 | IP Logged
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EVERY pump I have around here is belt driven. I don't seem to have a problem. If he needs to change the speed of the pump..he can just swap out a pulley.No alignment problems either. No expensive lovejoys and spiders to replace. Plus...the built in safety of a belt slipping can be a life saver.
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bunkclimber
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| Posted: 11 - May - 2010 at 06:22 | IP Logged
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if you're building a small machine with limited horsepower,why not go with a different pump? sometimes we all make mistakes in ordering parts..trying to use the wrong thing will cause you a lot of aggravation once the machine is all completed and up running,only to breakdown and puke when you need it most.I made a lot of mistakes when I built my artic loader a while ago,had to break down and order a lot of new parts to replace the ones I got for nothing that I thought would work..I spent more trying to make the old stuff work(adapters,etc) than new cost right out of box.It'l learn ya quick.
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Mike Van
Senior Machine Builder
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Home Town, State/Province: Kent Ct. USA
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| Posted: 11 - May - 2010 at 06:54 | IP Logged
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Bob, I know most anything can be made to work, but you just can't beat the ease of a Lovejoy. The one on my woodsplitter is 30+ years old, still getting it done. Two other applications, I made spyders for by cutting up a lacrosse ball on the band saw. A hockey puck would work too, but I couldn't find one.I never made a v-belt though. Why would you ever want a slipping belt? On anything, including the small log skidder machine John is building?
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bobodu
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Home Town, State/Province: Whitley County,In. EIEIO
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| Posted: 11 - May - 2010 at 16:34 | IP Logged
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If you ever hit anything and had a motor turn into a pump in a heartbeat..you would know. Kinda the same reason they put keys in shafts. Also..since I don't build anything with plans,If the belt slips..it probably is too heavy to lift. Then you also have the HP limits on Lovejoys...and the price...and finding one on Sunday...and the price...
Just don't see the wonder of them myself....much like MIG welders.
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Mike Van
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| Posted: 11 - May - 2010 at 17:49 | IP Logged
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I gotta agree on the mig Bob, useless they are. That should fire up someone - I can't grasp your theory on slipping belts though, it's kind of like saying "the clutch on my Goldwing slips, but it's o.k., if it didn't I'd go so fast I'd get hurt" Stan said to watch you if you forgot your meds.  
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Dawg
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| Posted: 11 - May - 2010 at 20:24 | IP Logged
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I understand what Bob is saying. How well would the ride be in your truck if there was suspension like a tractor? The slip is "give" and not totally solid.
On heavy equipment you want the diredt drive system, because it's all rated to work in unison.
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thaumaturge
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Home Town, State/Province: Beryl Jnct, UT Corner No & Where
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| Posted: 11 - May - 2010 at 20:49 | IP Logged
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Quote: bobodu ....much like MIG welders.
I like riding in Ferraris.... I own a Honda CRX, a Subaru wagon and a '78 Ford flatbed. If I owned a Ferrari I'd sell it and sink a well and spend the rest building both a house and a nice big shop. I also like Linciln welders... I own a Harbor frieght Mig. I'm not the lest bit ashamed of it. My younger brother owns three Harleys. Doesn't think much of Gold Wings.... Each to their own.
Doc
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bobodu
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| Posted: 12 - May - 2010 at 07:56 | IP Logged
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A slipping belt is a SAFETY FEATURE!! Would you want a clutch NOT to slip if the load was too great?? Ruined engines are much better...right?
Very few people with Harley mentality will ever actually get cured of it...but it does happen from time to time. But by that time,they are most often deaf and broke. I laugh every time I read the classifieds in the ABATE magazine. "2006 FLTZH. 12,000 miles . Engine rebuilt last spring".
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thaumaturge
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| Posted: 12 - May - 2010 at 12:16 | IP Logged
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uh... Non-sequitur... Think I'll go back to bed.
Doc
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johnp23
Machine Builder
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| Posted: 21 - May - 2010 at 17:17 | IP Logged
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Well, thanks for the input everybody. I have been trying to make the pump belt driven but just can't seem to keep it from slipping and heating up the pulley til it smokes.
I'm going to plan B i guess which either means sprocket and chain drive or buy a new pump. It's true that I've spent a lot of money trying to by pulleys and belts to make this work, but haven't been able to convince my wife that another $100 for a pump is the best answer. The problem is I already have so much into this machine that I HAVE to make it work. She's really wondering why we didn't just use the money to buy a load of logs instead.
I try telling her that ANYONE can buy logs, but how many people can sit out in the middle of the woods, stuck in a mud pit on a homemade log skidder, cursing the poor welds, and ultimately carrying the chunked pieces out by hand??!! I dream big 
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Mike Van
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| Posted: 21 - May - 2010 at 19:36 | IP Logged
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Sprockets & chain don't work well either, there's a vibration issue from the chain that tends to take the seal out of the end of the pump.
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glyford
Advanced Machine Builder
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| Posted: 22 - May - 2010 at 07:20 | IP Logged
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Is there a space issue or some other reason you can't just mount the pump under the motor? Are you using the motor to drive other loads, like a transaxle? If you have room on the shaft, you could put a pulley for a transaxle on far enough to still have room for a flex coupling on the end to go straight down into the pump.
If you're stuck with offsetting the pump to the side, upside down certainly still works, but a lot of pumps aren't rated for belt tension. Stiff couplings to a shaft extension with an outboard helper bearing doesn't really work, either--the stiff coupler will "walk" off one or the other shafts unless you have a very stiff setup, which can b e a real pain to get adjust accurately enough to not cause the exact issue you're trying to avoid of pump bearing load. A flex coupler and two bearings on that extension, now effectively a real jack shaft, works much better, and doesn't need to take up a whole lot of room.
On my FEL, a "real" jackshaft with a bearing on either side of the pulley only added 1/2" to the cobble I had on there before, and I was able to keep the pump and pulley in the same place. I've had no issues with it since adding in the flex (lovejoy) coupling, as opposed to having to jam everything back together every few hours with what I had before.
Here's another idea. If this is an electric start with no recoil, and you're already using the output of the main shaft to drive something else and just trying to squeeze in a pulley to drive the hydraulics as an accessory, how about coming off the other end of the motor? Make up an adapter to center on the top and screw down onto a bunch of the screw holes in the flywheel usually used for the screens--you might need to cut a center hole in the screen (I'd still use one to keep debris out of your engine fins) and use it to drive a pulley.
Then if ground clearance under the motor is the big reason not to put the pump under there direct, at least now, even with two bearings supporting a jackshaft and a lovejoy, you can still keep everything up high enough to not lose ground clearance. Look at some of the horizontal shaft motor setups that are used to drive pumps or alternators on garden tractors, you may even be able to find a suitable adapter already made.
Though if the pump is the only load, and you're worried about ground clearance, I think I'd still try to drive the pump direct and find a way to raise the motor instead. I realize some of these descisions can be agonizing when you have a machine mostly built, but in the end can still be worth the effort for simplicity of operation.
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f350ca
Advanced Machine Builder
Joined: 04 - January - 2004
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Home Town, State/Province: Calabogie Ontario Canada
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| Posted: 22 - May - 2010 at 10:13 | IP Logged
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John,
How big are your pulleys? Can you go with larger diameter ones.
Increasing the dia. increases the belt speed and lowers the load and
slip.
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Topic: help on mounting a hydraulic pump
